Episode #1 (47 min): Our guest, William Rinaudo Phillips (Bill), is the Father of entrepreneur Keller Rinaudo who is the CEO & Co-Founder of an innovative company called Zipline.
Zipline uses autonomous drones to deliver medical products to some of the most difficult places to reach on the planet. They’ve made >40,000 deliveries, many of which were in life-saving situations. Zipline began operations in Rwanda and has since expanded to other countries (including, as of this year, the USA).
Bill is an encouraging father. He encouraged his two kids to try new things, to think independently, and to take smart risks. Bill delves into these topics and several others on this episode of Fathering Excellence.
Zipline video (scroll down): https://flyzipline.com/how-it-works/
Keller Rinaudo Zipline TED Talk: https://youtu.be/73rUjrow5pI
Transcript likely contains some errors. Enjoy the episode!
Jonathan V.: Bill, thank you for being here today. Could you start out by describing what it’s like for you as a father to have witnessed all the incredible things Keller has done up to this point and now continues to do with his team at Zipline?
William: It’s been quite amazing to watch. It is in many respects, quite a rollercoaster ride. It’s very satisfying. It’s very fun. He really wants, not just his mother and I, but he really wants all relatives of his employees to visit the company, understand what’s going on, enjoy watching their progress. I mean, I just don’t know really exactly how to put in words how much fun it is. It’s just makes my life a lot more enjoyable to be able to watch both of my kids working night and day on such an exciting and fulfilling project.
Jonathan V: That is great. And, when we spoke previously, you mentioned that your daughter, Sierra, works at Zipline as well. How did that come to be?
William: She started working years ago remotely, because she was off on a rock climbing adventure that was kind of moving around the country. So, she was living out of a van with her pitbull and going from rock climbing crag to rock climbing crag – something that her brother had introduced her to, incidentally. Her brother got her working remotely for the company. And then, the next thing Deborah and I knew, he had convinced her to come to the Bay Area and to plug into the company and work full time for the company and she agreed to do so. And, I think that Keller convinced her to do so with the understanding that she should just come give it a try whether it be three months, six months, whatever. I think it’s now, like, going on three years that she’s been here living in San Francisco working full time and so, yeah, to have the two of them engaged together with this company, it could just not be any cooler. And, it also reunites us as a family, to be able to relocate over here, and to, you know, watch the two of them working for Zipline but to all be living in the same county literally just within 15 minutes of one another, it’s just come together in a way that I didn’t anticipate and that I just couldn’t be happier about.
Jonathan V: That’s wonderful to be able to live so close to your kids at this stage in life. So, dialing back the clock, you mentioned Phoenix. Is that where you raised Keller and Sierra?
William: They spent their first years just outside of Washington in a little area called Normandy Park. And then we moved to Olympia, Washington when they were still quite small. Keller was in the… I think he completed his fourth-grade year when Deborah and I decided that we would move to Arizona. They were then raised until they went off to college right there in Phoenix, Arizona.
Jonathan V: Hm. How do you describe home life and what were Deborah and you doing at the time?
William: When Deborah and I were married we were both lawyers. Once Keller was born in 1987, Deborah decided that – what we decided collectively, I guess – that she would be a stay-at-home mom. And, talk about not seeing things coming, I could remember being a little surprised that she was willing to take on that role. But, she eagerly took it on and so my role was to work hard as a trial lawyer and Deborah stayed home and took care of the kids.
Jonathan V: Were there particular aspects of parenting that were more your responsibility than hers?
William: Well, of course I suspect that Deborah was eager to have the weekends come around, because I would typically not work. Certainly, would not go into the office on weekends. And just basically give her a respite, because although she took the motherhood in a way that I didn’t really quite see coming. You know, it was exhausting and she was eager to have me take over and get a respite on the weekends. We started skiing as a family when the kids were quite young giving Deborah and I a little bit of an opportunity actually to spend time together when they were both in ski school for part of the day anyway.
Jonathan V: That’s nice. I love the idea of having things that a family does together. How did skiing become one of your family activities?
William: You know, that was kind of a family tradition. I had learned to ski with my family, having grown up with it myself, it was something I was eager to expose them to. Snow skiing, water skiing, you know, to me, to introduce my children to them, was just kind of a no brainer.
Jonathan V: And were there other things that you did together as a family?
William: Well, I could remember being rather intent to get them into water sports as well. And we have some family stories that we like to tell about how important it was to me to get them up on water skis behind the boat. And so, yes, I was rather intent on pulling them behind the boat; first, in an inner tube and then on a wakeboard and then try to graduate them up to water skis. And, Deborah likes to reminisce that she would tell them: “Look, you don’t have to love this. It may or may not be something you’re going to wind up wanting to do, but just give it a shot! Just try it.” And so, they would both commit usually more eagerly Sierra than Keller, because Sierra was a little bit more of a daredevil and so slowly but surely, they would agree to allow me to try to pull them up behind the boat on the water skis when they were all of three feet tall. It was a pretty tough activity, but I got it all on film of course. They both endured it. The funny thing about is, you know, to some extent, Keller was certainly not a big daredevil but his little sister was, so really anything that she would consent to, he would kind of almost begrudgingly kind of have to consent to. So, I think that Sierra may have been the first one to actually have popped up on the water ski behind the boat, but they both wound up getting there.
Jonathan V: That’s great. Do you have any more examples of times where you either encouraged your kids to push themselves out of their comfort zone or supported their desire to push themselves?
William: I do remember with… I do remember particularly with Sierra, that when we were snow skiing, she really, she was a daredevil, she really, really wanted to go to the top of the mountain and do this one run. I think it may have been called Rainier Express, or something. It was a pretty serious run. I’m not sure how she got it in her head, but she really wanted to go to the top of the mountain and do this one run. And, we tried it several times and it really never went well, you know. She wound up kind of skiing down with me holding her by the shoulders; me kind of holding her up in between my skis because it was such a steep mobile field, but children are amazing, you know. Two months later, something, you know, she would want to give it another try. She wanted to go up there and do Rainier Express again. And I guess, I could remember fanning that flame or encouraging that activity maybe even into some extent to her mother’s annoyance, but I just thought, “Hey, if that little girl wants to repetitively try to do Rainier Express, by golly, we’re going to make that happen!”
Jonathan V.: So Keller sounds like he was not a daredevil, per se, compared to Sierra. How would you describe Keller as a kid growing up?
William: An enthusiastic learner, extremely curious, a huge reader. I mean, he read…Deborah read and read and read to him and he took to reading and loved to read. I think he still remembers every single book he’s ever read and you know that number is growing exponentially as we speak probably. He’s a bit of a free spirit too. It’s just that when your little sister is a daredevil, sometimes the perspective is a little different.
Jonathan V.: Right, right. Were there ever times where you felt compelled to nudge Keller away from a particular activity that you thought might not be a good choice for him or the best use of his time?
William: I guess what I’d say in answer to that question with Keller is, I figured out rather early on that you know there were things that I might be interested in and that I might want to share with him and if it didn’t’ come naturally to him and if it didn’t you know make sense to him and if he wasn’t really drawn to it on his own, that I really just needed to back off and let him follow his, you know, his own instincts. Because, there were always things he wanted to do. I mean, reading was way up there on the top of the list. But, you know, whether it was throwing a Frisbee or throwing a ball, or writing his bike, I mean you know, a lot of typical kid things, but I can remember just discovering rather early on that he had lots of interests. He was very curious and that my best role was probably just to keep him safe and allow him to follow his instincts and do what kind of appealed to him rather than, you know, trying to guide him into things that interested me.
Jonathan V.: That’s something I’ve struggled with as a father. There have been times where I’ve tried to get my son interested in something that I’m passionate about and he has had no interest in it and I probably should of cut bait sooner than I did. Are there examples of when you went through that with Keller?
William: I had grown up loving my Stingray bicycle and riding it for hours and playing basketball with the neighborhood kids. And, my fascination for bicycles transferred over into motorcycles and sports cars and things like that. And, I can remember kind of thinking that Keller would probably go down those paths. And, he really didn’t. I don’t really remember him showing much interest in basketball. He was excited about skiing and, you know, I had that and I love that, because it was something I was also passionate about that I could share with him, but I could remember, you know, thinking that maybe we weren’t going to be shooting hoops together hour after hour. And I’ve got pictures of him where, you know, I’m out in the driveway doting over some automobile and, the picture I’m thinking in particular, I think he’s got a bottle of Armor All or something. And he’s sitting out there in the driveway looking at this bottle of Armor All thinking to himself, you know, “what am I out here for? What is this all about? Can I please just go back inside and read a good book?” And I just…I’ve always kind of looked back on that, you know, maybe a realization and of course as parents, you know, we never get to these realizations as quickly as we wish we had, but I just remember looking back at that picture and thinking to myself: “You know, you should have realized well before you did, the fact that this young man is not going to be helping you polish sports cars. It’s just not going to happen. “
Jonathan V.: So, how do you think Keller became so interested in reading? Were you a big bookworm? Was your wife?
William: His mother is a big bookworm. My father was a big bookworm. It was like a set of books called the Great Books. It was like a set of encyclopedias or something and my parents had have them for like ever. And you talk about something that was just made for my son. Once Keller realized what was in those books and what they meant to my father and how old some of the writings were and how admirable some of the people were that had written in them, he took to them rather quickly. And so, his love of books and, you know, reading biographies and reading the Great Books is something that was instilled much more by my wife and by my father than by myself.
Jonathan V.: Hm. With regards to Keller’s curiosity, were there things you did to nurture that curiosity or is there advice that you would give to fathers that have a curious kid?
William: You know, just to encourage it whenever you can and however you can. And to make sure that they’re being encouraged to pursue their agenda so long as it’s safe. And so, the way I was looking at it, you now, curiosity and being an enthusiastic learner was going to work quite nicely in terms of encouraging a child to go out and educate themselves in whatever fashion made sense to them. And to encourage it, enable it, but also kind of stay out of the way and let them develop things as they were intended to.
Jonathan V.: What Keller has gone on to accomplish as an adult … you know, Zipline in particular, this truly innovative company, which I‘d have to believe many people told to belong along the way to this, you know, crazy idea and yet he went for it. And, with the help of a stellar team is delivering life-saving medical supplies with drones would seem to do something like that a person would have to have a high comfort level with risk. Were there things that you did that may have helped lay the groundwork for him to be comfortable with risk later in life?
William: Well, we always tried to encourage him to pursue what makes sense to him, what he was interested in and what makes sense to him. And, you know, to some extent that would involve kind of marching to your own drummer and we always encouraged him to take bold steps, I guess. I mean it’s not uncommon for parents to want to play a role in guiding their children when it comes to college admissions. I can remember Deborah and I believing that it would probably make most sense to encourage out of state college if a child had any interest in it at all, because you can just never quite know what kids are going to do. And, exposing them to different things also occurs in exposing them to different cities, different states, different geographies, different countries and so I just think that we always wanted to broaden the experience, to expose them safely to lots of different activities and lots of different things. And so, I do think that Keller probably was raised with the notion that, why not try something different? Why not think it through for yourself? You could always bounce things off of your friends and family and parents and siblings, but why not think it through yourself and do what makes sense to you and even though your friends and family and parents may not completely understand it, as long as you believe you thought it through and it makes sense for you, why not go try it? I mean, I can remember many times talking with Deborah and being kind of almost reassured by her because she’s probably better at many of these things than I am and this is certainly one of them, to, you know, leave the nest, leave the state, go to the east coast, leave a safe job to start something new. What have you got to lose? What’s the downside? That has always been certainly his mother’s attitude and I had tried to jump on board because although I’m not naturally like that, it made sense to me. I’m just thankful that it’s worked out the way it has, because when you have an exceptionally gifted child, I just I’m not sure other strategies of trying to get them launched and trying to get them off on a life of their own is going to work out as well.
Jonathan V.: Right, right. Was there a point in time or were there times where you saw Keller was different – something that may have foreshadowed these incredible things that he went on to do later in life?
William: Well, I mean to me, since I’m not sure that anybody would’ve described me as an enthusiastic learner, you know, this is all kind of new to me so just to see a child that was just naturally so doggone curious and could, you know, just sit there and read and read and then ski for 3 hours and then get into a car and then go back to the book. To me it always looked a little unusual because he was just so much different than me. But the other thing that I can remember being kind of struck by is that he seemed, particularly as it got to be a middle schooler and a teenager, it began to be apparent that not only was he going to, you know, march to his own drummer but that he seemed pretty impervious to peer pressure. He was probably going to do what makes sense to him and what he wanted to do regardless of what was going on around him and what may have seemed popular if you will to the other kids in school with him. I thought that was unusual. I can remember thinking that it was probably a good thing. You know, just like his being so curious, I felt was good because I thought that would make him study and expose him to a lot of things and, you know, make him a more interesting person in the long run. I could also remember thinking that he was kind of impervious to peer pressure; that that was probably a good thing, nothing to be discouraged. And don’t get me wrong, he was always popular. I think it was always kind of easy for him to entertain the other kids But, you know, it would kind of be on his terms because he had a pretty good idea what he was interested in and what he wasn’t and by golly he was going to do what he was interested in.
Jonathan V.: With regards to academics, were there any particular challenges that you encountered with Keller?
William: There were a couple of things in that area. Number one, it was a bit of a challenge to find the right environment and the right teachers, because he learned pretty early on what a good looking teacher looked like and what somebody going through the motions looked like and, you know, he really gravitated to toward good teachers. And, you know, I could remember thinking that it was important that we support him in an effort to find such educators and to be pretty heads up about doing what we could to find him the right environment for his education. He would get bored very easily. So, if the educational environment or the teacher was not up to the task, was could not challenge him, he’d get bored. He’d get bored. He’d lose interest and we would kind of see it as a missed opportunity. So that was a bit of a challenge to keep him interested and keep his attention. You know, it’s hard. He was in public schools in Olympia. He had some very good teachers who were very well-intentioned and hard-working, but you know, they got the full gamut of all of these kids at different levels and abilities, you know, in the second, third grade. But, I think that we were able to detect it from talking with him about it and then trying to work with him and being quite candid with him about, you know, the fact that that wasn’t a good thing and we were going to try to make a change in that area. I mean, to the point where later on in his educational experience once he got to Arizona, he wound up with a teacher, a math teacher in high school where I can remember he was kind of just joking with us about how terrible she was. And, he was kind of by now, you know, he’s early in high school now, so it must have been ninth grade and, you know, he knew darn well what a poor teacher looked at that time. And, he had loved math and he knew that this teacher was terrible and you know, I’m afraid he may have tortured her a little bit. I think she was also a new teacher, but apparently, there was a principal in the class observing one day or something and this poor woman called on Keller and Keller said something like you know, “Look, I’m doing the best I can. I just wish you’d quit hitting me.” And of course, the comment was totally designed for the principal and, you know, had no factual basis, but he was so appalled and he was so disappointed and unhappy with this young woman that that’s the attack I guess he took at that time. But another thing I’ll say is, you know, at that point, he was in what was thought by many to be kind of an elite private high school in Arizona and he determined largely on his own that the teaching wasn’t particularly elite across the board and that some of the behavior he was seeing of his classmates was just kind of silly. It didn’t seem really focused on education. And some of the things he saw just seemed so goofy to him that he basically said, you know, “I think I know what you guys (meaning his parents) are paying for this educational experience and I’m just not sure it’s worth it”. And so, he started thinking about options and within, you know, months, he decided that he was going to enter an international baccalaureate program at a public high school in Phoenix. And it probably wound up improving his overall educational experience.
Jonathan V.: That’s fantastic. That’s great. What is an international baccalaureate program?
William: An IB program, is, I should be able to explain this better. It is a small program within a public high school, usually, and I think that they originally were designed and intended to help educate children that were here in our country from other countries, for whatever reason, but they have a much looser itinerary program setup allowing you to tailor the experience more to individual children. Jonathon, I am not doing a very good job of explaining this, but it enables high school kids to go with their own speed much better, perhaps graduate much earlier, but, you know, you have to be admitted into the IB program. It usually takes a bit of an enthusiastic learner and maybe a bit of a gifted student to get in. It’s almost like an honors program. But, you know, they usually have teachers that are interested and well equipped to really fan the flame, if you will, of students that are ready to be accelerated and to be challenged.
Jonathan V.: That sounds terrific. That really sounds like a wonderful place for a student like Keller.
William: It worked out very, very well. He was very interested in helping in kind of design his own educational program that could allow him to do the things that he was interested in and study the things that he was interested in. So yes, it was a very, very good fit for him at the time.
Jonathan V.: When it came time for the college search, it sounds like you encourage him to consider out of state schools and to broaden his horizons. Were there other things you did to help him navigate that process?
William: Not really, I mean, you know, we did all the typical things. I think he worked with a private counselor a little bit to help him figure out exactly how to go about it and focus himself on, you know, what kind of program he was really looking for. And, I think that he decided humanities/liberal arts were important – probably more important than anything – and you know, we’re talking about a kid, Jonathan, where literally he would change his favorite topic year to year. And, at first, I thought it was because he was so curious, but part of what was also going on is the best teacher would then kind of seem to drive the topic of interest and if he got to high school and of the sudden the English teacher was stellar, he would develop an increased interest in that topic. So I can remember just wanting to help him sort it out, no preconceived notions here. You don’t want to go into a profession just because your grandfather did or your father did, or your mother thinks it’s great. Figure it out for yourself and then look for programs that really fit you. And so, I think he did that and decided that there were 3 or four particular universities in our country, I don’t think he had applied at all internationally, they were in our country, that would meet those needs, and, you know, just facilitate all that and wound up where he had some good options
Jonathan V.: Well it sounds like he had some really good options, having been accepted to Harvard so, nice job switching gears a bit. How was it that Keller became interested in rock climbing?
William: My kids grew up around the outdoors, but the rock climbing is not something that we introduced him to. Keller had a job at a pizza restaurant in Arizona when he was in high school and there was a young man that he met there that had picked up rock climbing and wanted to introduce Keller to it. And he did and Keller just took to it. Just immediately, he just took to it like nobody’s business. I think that it was a combination of indoor and outdoor and he fell in love with it and he’s been in love with it ever since. He introduced everybody that he comes into contact with because he thinks that everybody ought to be rock climbing. And so it is now the family activity of first choice. We rock climb together as a family. Deborah and I have our shoes and harnesses and are right out there climbing along with him. The degree of difficulty is a lot less on the routes she and I go up and the ones that Keller and Sierra go up. But, you know, once again there is an example of encouraging something that may not have made a lot of sense to me originally. I remember the first time I went climbing with Keller. It was at Rumney in New Hampshire and we drove up there from Boston where he was going to school…going to college at the time. And, it was totally new to me and it was a little frightening. I did not understand the gear and technique and all of the protocols and I trusted Keller’s judgment that there wasn’t anything reckless or hopefully very dangerous going on. But, I had to have faith in my son and I had to be open-minded about it and I was and we’ve always encouraged climbing with ropes and a lot of redundancy in terms of the safety equipment. And so, you know, Keller took to it, he took to it with a vigor and a passion that I had never quite seen before. I mean, you know, he had taken to LEGOs, he had taken to computers, he had taken to books, but this was a real passion.
Jonathan V.: One of the things that fascinate me about Keller is that he continues to climb to this day at a very high level. As busy as he must be at Zipline, he is climbing at an elite level.
William: Correct.
Jonathan V.: Not at a level a whole lot of people climb at and it requires mainly maintaining a high level of fitness in order to do that.
William: Correct.
Jonathan V.: So, how did he become so good at managing time to be able to excel at multiple things at once?
William: Well, I think it goes back to not having any fear of failure and being encouraged to pursue what interests you. We’ve always encouraged to do all that you think you’re capable of. I mean, who’s to say what another individual is capable of? I can tell you that he’s obviously capable of a lot more than I ever was or ever will be. But, who’s to say? And I think sometimes, I need to kind of keep reminding myself, you know, the sky’s the limit. His capacity is whatever it is. He will do whatever he is going to do. And I need to make sure, that my own, my own fear, doesn’t in any way rub off on him. I mean, sometimes I think as parent you can worry that maybe a child is taking on too much. Maybe a child is exposing themselves to a little too much risk or a little too much danger. I’d be lying if I said sometimes I haven’t felt those things about both of my children. But, I think you got to be a little reserved and a little deliberate, a little careful about expressing those things and really poking your nose into those things. I mean, sure we all want to keep our kids safe, but boy oh boy, you know, drawing that line, I think can be super difficult. I know that there are some parents that probably think that at times we expose our children to too much. I know that there a probably some parents that think that sport climbing with ropes, you know, involves danger that needn’t be there. But that’s just never been our way. I mean, heck, I can remember some of his classmates’ parents thinking that I was abusing my children when I forced them to learn how to drive on a stick shift. I mean, it’s not like they were learning how to drive in Seattle even, this was Phoenix. My god, there was not even a hill in sight. How could that be risky or dangerous? I thought they were silly. But, people view risk differently. I mean those parents must have thought, “Wow, that’s just, driving a manual transmission car is difficult. I never learned how to do that. How can you do that to your children right out of the box, when there are all of these cars with automatic transmission?” It’s like, well, I think that they are going to be better in the long run if they learn on a manual. You know, driving an automatic, that’s easy. So, managing risk, exposing your children to risk, being willing to watch your children do some things that are risky, or, you know, whether it’s risky from a danger perspective point or risky from a economic/financial educational standpoint. It’s hard, I know it is. And, we’ve probably been very lucky. But I would encourage parents to think outside of the box a little bit and to try to push themselves to allow their children to experience risk a little bit more.
Jonathan V.: That’s great, great advice. What do you think your wife or kids might say to describe your parenting style?
William: I think they would both look back on and credit my style with encouraging them to be active, undertake sports, undertake them and give them a chance, whether they initially look interesting to them or not. As a matter of fact, I never really closed the loop on one story I wanted to tell you and that is when our kids were little and we were trying to get them to do things, for instance when I was trying to get them to water ski, we would say, “Well, you don’t have to like it but you have to try it, just once. You have to give me 10 minutes and you have to get your life vest on and get in the water and give this a try for 10 minutes. Just give it a try and then we’re done with it. And, we can go do something else for the rest of the day.” Well guess what, a few years ago when the children were encouraging us to outdoor sport climb in all kinds of different weather, I can remember them using those same words, with us. It’s like, “Mom, you don’t need to love this. You may or may not want to do this all day long, but you need to give this a try. You need to give us 15 minutes, you need to get on the rock, and you need to give it a try.”
Jonathan V.: That’s great. How did that make you feel?
William: Well, you know, when you hear your children using strategies against you that you once used with them, I think it mostly makes me feel pretty good.
Jonathan V.: That’s great. I imagine my first reaction would’ve been I wish I hadn’t have taught them that and then I would’ve felt how you described.
William: Yeah, there’s a little bit of that.
Jonathan V.: Reflecting back on it all, what’s something or some things that you would’ve done differently?
William: Well, I would have worked less and spent more time with them. I mean, I’m the guy that got up at 5 in the morning so that I could get into the office so that I could get my work all done so that I could get home by 3 o’clock in the afternoon so that we could all go out on the water together. And, I could pull them behind the boat for 2 or 3 hours. Keller wouldn’t let me do that but his sister would. But still, when I look back on it, I mean it goes by so fast and I’m fortunate enough that I still get to spend a lot of time with them now. But still, you know, they were only young and even more impressionable once and so I guess spending more time with them would’ve be one thing. And then, you know, even allowing them and encouraging them to follow their own instincts. I’m sure I did not do that as well as I could have. Thank goodness, I married a woman that, you know, that comes naturally to, so she was always kind of a good catch for me in that area, but that was not something that came naturally to me and so I think I probably could’ve done a better job at asking questions and standing back and kind of encouraging them to figure things out for themselves.
Jonathan V.: Well it seems like you did a lot of things right. You appear to have two fantastic kids. Is there any advice you would give to other fathers?
William: Well understand this: when your kids are small, it’s so exhausting. You invest yourself so thoroughly not knowing, you know, how this is all going to work out, but it often does work out, and what you wind up with is something so precious. I mean, I now have two children that in essence I can rely upon for absolutely anything. I had a situation just where Sierra called me and said, “Dad, I talked to Keller, we think you ought to come home now.” And it was because of the COVID-19 developments and the fact that I was out of state, and things were exploding. And, my daughter is smarter than me and had figured this all out and had decided that her father was at increased risk or close enough and that I had just ought to come home and not risk myself anymore. And it’s just amazing how quickly nowadays and easily it was to say, “You know what? If my 30-year-old daughter had spoken to her brother and the two of them think that I had to come home right now, I am bailing out of this office and I’m heading back to the Bay Area right now. So, you know, to have that in my life, it’s not as if I’m not married to somebody who is pretty delightful and amazing, but to have two children that want to spend time with me and that want to help take care of me and want to keep me safe and do things with me, it’s just pretty doggone rewarding as a father.
Jonathan V.: I bet.Bill, it has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for your time and I hope we get to talk again in the future.
William: OK, you too.